Curse

Maiyn · Feb 17, 2007, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Bleh..

I don't feel so bad about losing to this garbage then. We just got overwhelmed with the minions all over me, impossible to infuse under those circumstances.

My guild wasn't too impressed, I'll have to tell them about this thread, a little less rage perhaps. ;O

Does make me laugh a bit, even if we did get rolled by it. It's just such a ridiculously funny/stupid thing to see >D

Hyunsai · Feb 17, 2007, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Funny thing is they lost to a Full Ritua Spike and to guilds running 2 Burst Prison sins at frontline. Seems like they can't handle spike very well.

Patrick Smit · Feb 17, 2007, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Hmm

Team Everfrost are one of the best teams in the world, vastly experienced, highly talented. regardless of their build, and I mean literally regardless, my opinion would be that they should be able to beat ANY team containing even one hero, never mind four heroes, just by outplaying them.

if a team containing 4 heroes, and with all due respect to [neo] a team that arent exactly top tier either, can beat one of the best teams in the world, even if that team was running an experimental build they had never played before then the ONLY conclusion you can reach is that there is a massive skill imbalance somewhere, in this case the imbalance being partly in the hero reaction time (this build is easier to run with heroes than with real players) and partly in the discord skill itself. its not instant win ofc, as you need 4 players used to running heroes and who are quite skilled at manipulating the hero AI, but its certainly heavily imbalanced

You don't manipulate hero AI, you just trigger it. Putting the hex/enchant and condition there is just enough. RC or draw should be prime to mitigate the spike. If you start protting instead you just help the discord spike. Once you faced them i guess it will be easier to defeat them after, with an adjusted build perhaps. I think it will never be as overwhelming as the jagged bones build. Once you control conditions the spike will be very difficult to land or follow up on. Just take outor limit heroes in GvG as in HA, and disco(rd)way is nerfed. An increase to 2 secs casttime may be nice too.

Ruben · Feb 17, 2007, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

This build was pretty useless in HA (faced it) so maybe it's the monks and not the build. Not monks as bad players, but the 2 monk backline or their build.

Hey we got a few kills!

Arkantos · Feb 17, 2007, 04:36 PM // 16:36

I just watched Neo get rolled twice by ops and LoS....either ANet changed hero AI, or they're just getting bad..

Mental Leteci · Feb 17, 2007, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruben

Hey we got a few kills!

That's true

Anyway, it's pointless even to discuss this when people think GvG world id destroyed cause one of the top teams lost to a team with 4 heroes. EW played necro spike on the tourney once, should we all play it cause one of the top team is playing it? Please, leave this type of discussion somewhere else. They lost cause they weren't prepared for so much damage from a team with 4 heroes, obviously. If that match didn't finish so fast (if Neo was stupid enough to stay far from guild lord) eF would probably win.

tomcruisejr · Feb 17, 2007, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

That's true

Anyway, it's pointless even to discuss this when people think GvG world id destroyed cause one of the top teams lost to a team with 4 heroes. EW played necro spike on the tourney once, should we all play it cause one of the top team is playing it? Please, leave this type of discussion somewhere else. They lost cause they weren't prepared for so much damage from a team with 4 heroes, obviously. If that match didn't finish so fast (if Neo was stupid enough to stay far from guild lord) eF would probably win.

i love how the mods preserve your post which obviously opposes the popular view. i post my unpopular views and it gets deleted.

Punji · Feb 18, 2007, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Don't think the build is that overpowered. We got pushed into our base by 2 of these teams. Spirit Bond and Shield of Absorption completely nullifies the damage, until they switch to another target, then SB and SoA again. That's the beauty of heroes.

Patccmoi · Feb 18, 2007, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

That's true

Anyway, it's pointless even to discuss this when people think GvG world id destroyed cause one of the top teams lost to a team with 4 heroes. EW played necro spike on the tourney once, should we all play it cause one of the top team is playing it? Please, leave this type of discussion somewhere else. They lost cause they weren't prepared for so much damage from a team with 4 heroes, obviously. If that match didn't finish so fast (if Neo was stupid enough to stay far from guild lord) eF would probably win.

I don't think the main thing is that the winning team had 4 heroes but more than the build works BECAUSE of heroes. It would be extremely hard for human players to run a Discord build anywhere close to that efficiency. They can find people meeting the req for Discord anywhere in a full team build and do a perfectly timed spike cause they all find the same person at the same time.

Basically it's AI abuse. It's like running 2 Mesmer heroes with a bunch of Power interrupt and locking them on enemy monks (which is absolutely devastating, especially if you give them Power Block, but in GvG they're too fragile and kinda too stupid to stay alive well when they get kited, or people split, etc. Works damn well in HA though, and a well designed and controlled hero Mesmer with Power Interrupt since they got buffed is more dangerous than most Mesmer players).

I don't think that team builds abusing hero AI is actually appealing to most players wanting to play a competitive PvP game.

Lena A · Feb 18, 2007, 02:17 AM // 02:17

omg my mesmer hero is so leet, he just p-blocked the monk's holy veil. Good job isn't it?

back on the subject, the guys from Neo just can't play with more than 4 players even if they are 90 in the guild (pve guild ftl) so they made their build to fit with the maximum number of players they can play with. Sure it's a nice proof that 6 necro together in a team is overpowered, but I can't really blame these guys because:

At least they don t use jade or burning isle!!!!!

Redfeather1975 · Feb 19, 2007, 07:24 AM // 07:24

What if Discord was changed to only work on foes NOT under the effects of an enchantment, while having a condition+hex on them.

JR · Feb 19, 2007, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

They can find people meeting the req for Discord anywhere in a full team build and do a perfectly timed spike cause they all find the same person at the same time.

That's actually a very good point, that I had not thought of before.

Riotgear · Feb 19, 2007, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I'm sure Izzy meant well though. I mean, how could he have known that a skill dealing 100+ damage on a 1s cast and a 2s recharge would be used for spiking?

I called this the day Discord got its buff. Not that I thought heroway would be the way it's done, and I didn't realize Toxic Chill was the ideal trigger, but it should have been obvious this would happen. 115 damage on a 2-second recharge should have screamed "abuse" from a mile away, it was just a matter of time until someone figured out how to work past the conditionality.

Watch them "fix" this by dropping the hero limit again, then a new Discord spike build will show up in a month.

Symbol · Feb 19, 2007, 08:23 AM // 08:23

I played a discord nec in TA with Patccmoi-honestly I think the heroes are the main issue here. Human players simply cannot run the build as efficiently, you waste a lot of time casting at a target who has the condition removed at the last moment, cycling through targets to try and maintain your hexes, managing your energy, and generally you almost never get to cast discord on recharge.

So while I think the damage needs to be toned down, I also think the skill needs to be changed to be less conditional, so it can see use outside of ridiculous gimmicks like this.

Patrograd · Feb 19, 2007, 10:57 AM // 10:57

We have beaten some of these teams flawlessly, so there is a skill element involved as some teams are better at it than others, but the point remains that you shouldnt be able to progress in GvG in the way Neo have done with heroes. Kudos for the build etc, but please, its silliness really

Kabale · Feb 19, 2007, 11:08 AM // 11:08

Whoever worked on the mathematics involved with calculating hero reaction time needs to be shot.

Twice.

HolyHawk · Feb 19, 2007, 08:40 PM // 20:40

We beat a team using it once as well, but it's not easy to beat. The conditions for discord can be met easilly, and hero's response time is just too good. You can split yes, but they can crush you at the same speed you push on their base. What annoys me is the direction the nerf/balance guy takes. It seems that skills that see little to no use are ultra powered so they get into the spotlight. Look at Spoil Victor, it was never used before, but it was never trash to me. Discord didn't seem bad to me either, why such a boost...

Program Ftw · Feb 19, 2007, 08:49 PM // 20:49

I agree, I think the Hero Mechanics should be set to register what they need to do instantly, but have a 0.2 second delay.

Some may present the argument, that this may be balanced by the Heroes not being able to cancel skills, for Example:

If I was an Elem, and I cast Blinding Surge, and Diversion suddenly popped up, I could cancel the skill.

A Hero would continue to cast through it.

However, I believe that the reaction time for the Heroes should be altered.

Thanks,
Program~

Riotgear · Feb 20, 2007, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Just make heroes unavailable in HA/GvG, problem solved. Then it won't matter how sort-of overpowered they are because it'll all be against other AI trash.

s w o r d y · Feb 20, 2007, 03:34 AM // 03:34

allow hecnhies not heroes in GvG. Then all the guilds that bleat about wanting to GvG, that don't have 8 people, and don't have friends can still enjoy the lovely contest of GvG.

but I suspect I ain't the first to offer this up